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Author Topic: Firmware X release!!  (Read 46675 times)

TWG_TECH8

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Re: Firmware X release!!
« Reply #150 on: December 08, 2009, 08:50:38 am »

I agree with Hubert's comment above.

I think the "pace3min" is useful, but in addition to that, I would like to see some more up-to-date information on my running.

Thus, my proposal would be to have the pace3min as Geffrey proposed showing a stable "cruising" pace and another pace item, which would be improved (smoothed) from the current pace. (It can't be too complicated for the CPU to average 1-20 samples of currently displayed pace values - If there is no possibility to have moving average, this smoothed pace could be updated eg. once/10-20sec.)

Geoffrey, have you tried to smooth the currently displayed pace item? How do you calculate the pace/speed at the moment or does it come directly from NMEA information?

So, it seems that we come to the starting point of this discussion... how to get the pace value smoothed...

@Hubert, Ultrapetita

Thanks for providing useful ideas.
You know, "easy to use" always conflict to "flexible", so that is a problem on configureable setting of pace. :-[
My propose for 3min is even for walking (3.6km/hr), there will 180m for calculation to avoid getting huge pace value.

Now for current 625 firmware, we got NMEA speed data and do smoothing every 5 sec.
And pace is the reciprocal of speed, but obviously doesn't work for pace. :-[

Any good ideas?

Sincerely,

Geoffrey
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TWG_TECH8

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Re: Pace
« Reply #151 on: December 08, 2009, 08:55:20 am »

Hello together,

the reason for pace1k was or is because the GPS-error is to big to get usable values for pace if you move in slow speeds like you do while running. So the values for pace are not useable at the moment.
I ask myself how Garmin is solving this problem or havenīt them solved the problem? Does anybody know if the Forerunner 205 / 305 or the 310XT show the actual pace while running in true values without jumping more than 10sec/min when running with a constant speed?

Regards

Longjog

Hi GH-625 enthusiast!

As I know, Garmin uses average to smooth speed and then to get the pace as reciprocal of speed.
So they also have this problem.

Anyway, only Globalsat will keep alaways finding out the solution! :)
I believe we can find the best solution together.


Regards

Geoffrey
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TWG_TECH8

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Re: Pace
« Reply #152 on: December 08, 2009, 08:58:01 am »

I ask myself how Garmin is solving this problem or havenīt them solved the problem? Does anybody know if the Forerunner 205 / 305 or the 310XT show the actual pace while running in true values without jumping more than 10sec/min when running with a constant speed?

Regards, Longjog
I also had this question in my mind and I will try to ask somebody. I know, that speed calculation in general is a problem
and that others try to solve it by an additional device (like foot pad). I don't like this solution because I don't want to carry
and maintain an extra device, so I forgot who uses this solution...

Regards, Hubert

Hi Hubert,

You have to set the foot distance before getting training by footpad. So you have to keep the constant foot for training.

Regards

Geoffrey ;)
 
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TWG_TECH8

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Re: Pace
« Reply #153 on: December 08, 2009, 09:00:07 am »

I ask myself how Garmin is solving this problem or havenīt them solved the problem? Does anybody know if the Forerunner 205 / 305 or the 310XT show the actual pace while running in true values without jumping more than 10sec/min when running with a constant speed?
In Forums likes this: http://forum.runnersworld.de/forum/pulsuhren-gps-trainingssoftware/ the problem is also discussed. And it is not solved by Garmin!

I can't understand German, anybody can help me to find where is the page?

Sincerely,

Geoffrey
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Hubert

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Re: Pace
« Reply #154 on: December 08, 2009, 09:29:29 am »


Hi GH-625 enthusiast!

As I know, Garmin uses average to smooth speed and then to get the pace as reciprocal of speed.
So they also have this problem.

Anyway, only Globalsat will keep alaways finding out the solution! :)
I believe we can find the best solution together.


Regards

Geoffrey

This is, what I really like !  :D

Regards, Hubert
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GH-625XT, Firmware: F-GGH-2P-1112231 (Beta)
GH-505 M, Firmware: F-GGH-2C-1007161 (Beta)
GH-625 M, Firmware: F-GGH-2A-1001073 (Version XII)
with GS-Sport Gym Pro v1.6.8 and Sporttracks 2.1.3326

Hubert

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Re: Pace
« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2009, 09:36:32 am »

I ask myself how Garmin is solving this problem or havenīt them solved the problem? Does anybody know if the Forerunner 205 / 305 or the 310XT show the actual pace while running in true values without jumping more than 10sec/min when running with a constant speed?

Regards, Longjog
I also had this question in my mind and I will try to ask somebody. I know, that speed calculation in general is a problem
and that others try to solve it by an additional device (like foot pad). I don't like this solution because I don't want to carry
and maintain an extra device, so I forgot who uses this solution...

Regards, Hubert

Hi Hubert,

You have to set the foot distance before getting training by footpad. So you have to keep the constant foot for training.

Regards

Geoffrey ;)

Hi Geoffrey,

please - don't misunderstand ! 

I don't want to have such kind of a solution !  Never ! :-[

Regards, Hubert
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GH-625XT, Firmware: F-GGH-2P-1112231 (Beta)
GH-505 M, Firmware: F-GGH-2C-1007161 (Beta)
GH-625 M, Firmware: F-GGH-2A-1001073 (Version XII)
with GS-Sport Gym Pro v1.6.8 and Sporttracks 2.1.3326

ultrapetita

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Re: Firmware X release!!
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2009, 01:07:41 pm »

Now for current 625 firmware, we got NMEA speed data and do smoothing every 5 sec.
And pace is the reciprocal of speed, but obviously doesn't work for pace. :-[

Any good ideas?



How about smoothing this NMEA speed (pace) data (averaging) over longer period? Let's say 10, 20, 30 seconds (ideally the user could specify the averaging time)?
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calvin

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Re: Pace
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2009, 08:15:33 pm »

Anyway, only Globalsat will keep always finding out the solution! :)
I believe we can find the best solution together.

This IS customer care!
In Globalsat we trust :)


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GH-625M with firmware F-GGH-2A-1001073
GS-Sport Training Gym v2.1
SportTracks v2.1.3478
QuickRoute v2.3

TWG_TECH8

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Re: Pace
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2009, 08:54:51 pm »


Hi GH-625 enthusiast!

As I know, Garmin uses average to smooth speed and then to get the pace as reciprocal of speed.
So they also have this problem.

Anyway, only Globalsat will keep alaways finding out the solution! :)
I believe we can find the best solution together.


Regards

Geoffrey

This is, what I really like !  :D

Regards, Hubert

Hi Hubert,

So, let's start to find out the turth! ;D

Regards

Geoffrey
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TWG_TECH8

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Re: Firmware X release!!
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2009, 08:57:40 pm »

Now for current 625 firmware, we got NMEA speed data and do smoothing every 5 sec.
And pace is the reciprocal of speed, but obviously doesn't work for pace. :-[

Any good ideas?



How about smoothing this NMEA speed (pace) data (averaging) over longer period? Let's say 10, 20, 30 seconds (ideally the user could specify the averaging time)?

Hi Ultrapetita,

Actually, NMEA outputs data every second, we average it by 5 points shift.
We tried 16 points average, but response is too slow.  :-\

Regards

Geoffrey

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TWG_TECH8

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Re: Pace
« Reply #160 on: December 08, 2009, 08:59:27 pm »

Anyway, only Globalsat will keep always finding out the solution! :)
I believe we can find the best solution together.

This IS customer care!
In Globalsat we trust :)

Thanks, Calvin

We will win the speed devil.  ;D

Regards

Geoffrey
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calvin

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Re: Firmware X release!!
« Reply #161 on: December 09, 2009, 07:38:05 am »

Ok Geoffrey, here's some ideas: :)

Heart rate
HR% in custom page: how is this calculated, is it by subtracting age from 220?
220 minus age can be an initial value because not everyone knows his/her maxHR.
But for others it is an important value. I'm 33 old, my theoretical maxHR is 220-33=187 but I easily get to 199 when sprinting hard!
The user could be able to input is own maxHR and restHR values, just like already done for height and weight?

GPS on/off
In Configuration I can turn GPS off, but that setting only stays until I power-off the device.
When I turn on the device, it always starts searching gps signal again.
Could this default start-up behavior be different and based on a parameter, just like already done for backlight and HRmonitor? I suggest a parameter in Configuration: Search gps signal at startup? (Yes / No / Ask)

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GH-625M with firmware F-GGH-2A-1001073
GS-Sport Training Gym v2.1
SportTracks v2.1.3478
QuickRoute v2.3

Hubert

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Re: Pace
« Reply #162 on: December 10, 2009, 05:30:35 am »

Hi all,

I promised to try to get some information about Garmin pace functionality...

I ask myself how Garmin is solving this problem or havenīt them solved the problem? Does anybody know if the Forerunner 205 / 305 or the 310XT show the actual pace while running in true values without jumping more than 10sec/min when running with a constant speed?

Regards, Longjog
I also had this question in my mind and I will try to ask somebody...
Regards, Hubert
In the meantime I have asked about 3 persons about this subject (all using a 305 model). The conclusion is:
Also the Garmin 305 is far away from showing a perfect pace value !

Garmin offers a smoothing function for pace with 3 different user configurable modes: Slightly, medium and maximum.
(Geoffrey, did you read this ?: "user configurable" !  :D)
All persons, I asked told me they are using the medium smoothing mode. (I assume, this might be the default setting,
and they didn't want to change it...).
Anyway - the result is:
* The values are not reliable. Nobody wants to bet that a displayed value of 5:00 Min/km isn't 5:20 in reality.
* The values need a long time to respond to a speed change. Maybe it's okay for a constant speed, but not usable for
   shot distance interval training.

So - this again shows, that the display of current speed (or pace) is not so easy for slow movements.

However - the fact, that Garmin isn't able to create a useful pace display, doesn't mean that GlobalSat should lean back
and forget this job !  Perhaps this is a chance to outperform the Garmin technique ?!

... on the other hand... there is an old saying... I don't remember right now... I will have to catch up on that...

Anyway - Geoffrey:  There were a lot of useful suggestions:
* Average for 10,20, or 30 sec. 
* Average for 100m, 200m or 300m (this was your own suggestion !)
* Moving average, median algorithm or whatever...

Did you try to implement one (or more) of these suggestions ? What are the results ?
Does it work ?  Why not ?

And please: Take some more time to explain !
Sentences like:
Quote from: Geoffrey
We tried 16 points average, but response is too slow. 
are not very helful !   ???  Who's response to what is too slow for what ?  ???

Regards, Hubert

Logged
GH-625XT, Firmware: F-GGH-2P-1112231 (Beta)
GH-505 M, Firmware: F-GGH-2C-1007161 (Beta)
GH-625 M, Firmware: F-GGH-2A-1001073 (Version XII)
with GS-Sport Gym Pro v1.6.8 and Sporttracks 2.1.3326

TWG_TECH8

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Re: Firmware X release!!
« Reply #163 on: December 10, 2009, 10:40:31 am »

Ok Geoffrey, here's some ideas: :)

Heart rate
HR% in custom page: how is this calculated, is it by subtracting age from 220?
220 minus age can be an initial value because not everyone knows his/her maxHR.
But for others it is an important value. I'm 33 old, my theoretical maxHR is 220-33=187 but I easily get to 199 when sprinting hard!
The user could be able to input is own maxHR and restHR values, just like already done for height and weight?

GPS on/off
In Configuration I can turn GPS off, but that setting only stays until I power-off the device.
When I turn on the device, it always starts searching gps signal again.
Could this default start-up behavior be different and based on a parameter, just like already done for backlight and HRmonitor? I suggest a parameter in Configuration: Search gps signal at startup? (Yes / No / Ask)

Hi Calvin,

Thanks for constructive ideas!
I will discuss with our marketing team.  :)

Regards

Geoffrey
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TWG_TECH8

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Re: Pace
« Reply #164 on: December 10, 2009, 10:49:44 am »

Hi all,

I promised to try to get some information about Garmin pace functionality...

I ask myself how Garmin is solving this problem or havenīt them solved the problem? Does anybody know if the Forerunner 205 / 305 or the 310XT show the actual pace while running in true values without jumping more than 10sec/min when running with a constant speed?

Regards, Longjog
I also had this question in my mind and I will try to ask somebody...
Regards, Hubert
In the meantime I have asked about 3 persons about this subject (all using a 305 model). The conclusion is:
Also the Garmin 305 is far away from showing a perfect pace value !

Garmin offers a smoothing function for pace with 3 different user configurable modes: Slightly, medium and maximum.
(Geoffrey, did you read this ?: "user configurable" !  :D)
All persons, I asked told me they are using the medium smoothing mode. (I assume, this might be the default setting,
and they didn't want to change it...).
Anyway - the result is:
* The values are not reliable. Nobody wants to bet that a displayed value of 5:00 Min/km isn't 5:20 in reality.
* The values need a long time to respond to a speed change. Maybe it's okay for a constant speed, but not usable for
   shot distance interval training.

So - this again shows, that the display of current speed (or pace) is not so easy for slow movements.

However - the fact, that Garmin isn't able to create a useful pace display, doesn't mean that GlobalSat should lean back
and forget this job !  Perhaps this is a chance to outperform the Garmin technique ?!

... on the other hand... there is an old saying... I don't remember right now... I will have to catch up on that...

Anyway - Geoffrey:  There were a lot of useful suggestions:
* Average for 10,20, or 30 sec. 
* Average for 100m, 200m or 300m (this was your own suggestion !)
* Moving average, median algorithm or whatever...

Did you try to implement one (or more) of these suggestions ? What are the results ?
Does it work ?  Why not ?

And please: Take some more time to explain !
Sentences like:
Quote from: Geoffrey
We tried 16 points average, but response is too slow. 
are not very helful !   ???  Who's response to what is too slow for what ?  ???

Regards, Hubert

Hi Hubert, all runners!
This our hard job! Over out of Garmin!
We tried 16 points average, but our colleagues told it is too slow... :(
We have implemented two method:
Method 1: Base on the distance of beginning 3min and do calculation of Pace base on 3 sec shift.
Method2: To get pace base on first 1km and then to get next pace by 100m shift. (last 1km/time)

So far, it is not bad! :) But the two value seems is not equal. ???

Sincerely,

Geoffrey
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