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[zingo]

The HR graph could be plot:ed on the display for visual inspection before you select it. And when we talk about ploting graphs I think future models should be able to plot all sorts of graphs, like HR,High,speed. And the display should be high resolution and color, but now we probably are a little bit more into the future...

[abdominizer]

By the way, HRmax is an individual and fixed value, up to my knowledge, it cant be exeeded by a heart out of rhythem, at least by healthy athlets.

Dennis,
My experience on max HR is that it can vary depending on various reasons like what shape you're in, often the variations are not very big but 5-10 beats/minute is not unusual in the max HR tests I have done, and they have all been done in the exact same way on a treadmill.

Regards,
Jonas

[DonDuron]

Hi Jonas,

As a coffee-drinker, I observe equal variations in HR of up to 10 bpm during exercise after consuming caffeine. But, please correct me if i'am wrong, the most accurate way to determine HRmax is a clinical stress test in treadmill or ergometer under EKG-supervision until changes in heart function becomes visible. This value is genetically determined, age dependent and cant be exeeded. Under certain conditions, it may be easyer or harder to reach HRmax or "near HRmax".



Inspecting HR as plotted graph would be a very good compromise, great idea.
And a high resolution color display that would let you analyse your workout visually would make the perfect stand-alone solution.

Regards,
Dennis

[TWG_TECH8]

But future watches would use ant coded belts and sensors that are much more reliable and would not produce these spike values.

ANT-coded belts will be more reliable but the possibility of a spike value still exists. The ANT technology is not 100% accurate and even if it is 100% correct there are still the possibility that your heart will beat out of rythm wich will produce a spike.

What about the device would ask you after you have finnished your workout, i mean after you have stopped the timer, press ESC and beeing asked to store the data? something like: "set 211 as new HRmax?" and you can decide by yourself?

I think you will have to analyze the HR curve on your computer screen to be able to see if the max HR is a spike or not. When you are running with a HR close to your max you won't be looking at yor watch long enough to be able to determine if max HR was a spike or not.

So I still don't like the idea, even though your argumentation makes sense!

regards,
Jonas

Again I agree, that even ant-coded belts can generate false signals, but in case one would be asked to accept the new readings, the decision is made by the user, and I think,hope, that no one would accept a HRmax of 290 without doubting authenticity. By the way, HRmax is an individual and fixed value, up to my knowledge, it cant be exeeded by a heart out of rhythem, at least by healthy athlets.
And like many others, i prefer to analyse my workout by transfering the data to my computer and visualizing them through Training Gym or SportTracks.
On the other hand, many of the runners I know like to use their wrist-training-computers as a "standalone-device". When running, they need a reliable value for %HR, and in this cases it would be quite comfotable to put on your watch, perform a hard workout like interval uphill running resulting in maxHR, that would let calculate the trainingcomputer reliable %HR-values for zone training in future workouts.

Regards,
Dennis

Hi all sportive enthusiasts!

It sounds interesting to calculate the max HR by curve automatically.  As I know, althtes may through 3 interval trainings (warm-up, cool down, training) to get max HR,  but, we have to find out a way to get the value because the pike of HR is quite annoying and will impact accuracy.


Let's share idea over there.

Sincerely,

Geoffrey

[Longjog @ GS-Sport-Servicecenter]

Hello together,

I donīt think itīs possible to calculate a reliable HFmax from the HF-curve. If someone wants to know its HFmax the best way is to make a test with maximum speed after warming up or at the end of a competition (5k or 10k race).
It is easy to read the saved maximum HF from the memory then. Please donīt try to develop any algorythm for calculation because you only can burn your fingers with this. 

The other point I want to came back to, is that the anaerobic threshold HFvd is much more interesting for taining than HFmax. So it would be fine to set the value manualy. With the actual firmware I have to calculate my virtual year of birth = 2010 -(220-HFvd) to see the interesting %HF value as % of HFvd.

HFvd could be find out by a conconi-test or by a specific lactat test.

Regards Longjog

[abdominizer]

Hi Jonas,

As a coffee-drinker, I observe equal variations in HR of up to 10 bpm during exercise after consuming caffeine. But, please correct me if i'am wrong, the most accurate way to determine HRmax is a clinical stress test in treadmill or ergometer under EKG-supervision until changes in heart function becomes visible. This value is genetically determined, age dependent and cant be exeeded. Under certain conditions, it may be easyer or harder to reach HRmax or "near HRmax".

Regards,
Dennis

Hello Dennis,
Caffeine might play a role in the varying max HR values in my tests, I normally drink coffee but I haven't isolated that variable in any max HR tests yet.

I think that the fact that it is easier or harder to reach max HR during certain circumstances might have some effect on varying max HR if the max HR is a fixed value, in my case I have always reached higher max HR values in the summer when I'm in racing shape for the 800m & 1500m. I think this is because of more speedwork and shorter intervals which produce higer HR during workouts that will prepare my heart for a max effort. The long distance runs and long aerobic intervals that I do in the fall and winter have the oppisite effect on my max HR which is 5-10 beats/minute lower in the tests I have done during these periods of hard mileage training.

Sincerely,
Jonas

[abdominizer]

I donīt think itīs possible to calculate a reliable HFmax from the HF-curve. If someone wants to know its HFmax the best way is to make a test with maximum speed after warming up

I agree! This is probably what your average runner should do to get a reliable max HR value. A controlled max HR test on a treadmill with EKG and so forth will give you a more scientific value, but unless you have the right contacts or want to pay for this test, which is quite expensive, a test on your own will be good enough. (If you do the test with your GH-625 and reach a HR of 200 you might want to redo the test with another pulsewatch since the GH-625 will not show values over 200.)

Regards,
Jonas

[snow_freak]

This value is genetically determined, age dependent and cant be exeeded. Under certain conditions, it may be easyer or harder to reach HRmax or "near HRmax".

That's absolutly right.
Please don't waste time for any calculation of HRmax in the watch. The result will always be wrong. A manual intput of HRmax would make sense.

The other point I want to came back to, is that the anaerobic threshold HFvd is much more interesting for taining than HFmax.

That's the basis for a HF-controlled training.

[DonDuron]

Hello together,

I donīt think itīs possible to calculate a reliable HFmax from the HF-curve. If someone wants to know its HFmax the best way is to make a test with maximum speed after warming up or at the end of a competition (5k or 10k race).
It is easy to read the saved maximum HF from the memory then. Please donīt try to develop any algorythm for calculation because you only can burn your fingers with this. 

The other point I want to came back to, is that the anaerobic threshold HFvd is much more interesting for taining than HFmax. So it would be fine to set the value manualy. With the actual firmware I have to calculate my virtual year of birth = 2010 -(220-HFvd) to see the interesting %HF value as % of HFvd.

HFvd could be find out by a conconi-test or by a specific lactat test.

Regards Longjog

Hi Lonjog,

about HRmax: i have to "cheat" my 625 the same, I would be fine with the "manual input" option.
about HFvd: how would you estimate your Lactate/Anaerobic Threshold by heart rate without precise HRmax value? I thought this based on the assumption, that HRvd is about 85-90% of HRmax.

Regards
Dennis

[Longjog @ GS-Sport-Servicecenter]

Hi Dennis,

one easy way to findaout the anaerobic threshold is the conconi-test
You can google for it or look here:
http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/j.vd.bosch/conrunners.html
I prefer a pace file increasing speed 0,5 km/h every 200m and not continously like Mr. Bosch is doing.
My pacefile as mp3 is beginning with a speed of 10km/h can be downloaded here:
http://mitglied.multimania.de/Paulchen67/conconi/Conconi_64kbps.mp3
every beep ist for 10m, at beginning is a special start signal. Increasing speed after 20 beeps with a higher tone. You have to set marks every 10 meters.
Anaerobic threshold is very individual. You canīt say it is always between 85 - 90 % of HFmax.
Regards
Longjog

[snow_freak]

An other way to find your anaerobic threshold is an lactate-step-test. It should be executed by a sports-medical.
After some years of hf controlled training, now i control my training intensity mainly by pace. That's why i have the Gh625! The Hf depends on so many conditions like temprerature, day time, clothing, circadian rhythm and many more. For me i think pace based training is more effective than hf based training. I get my pace targets by the "Jack Daniels running formula".

[abdominizer]

one easy way to findaout the anaerobic threshold is the conconi-test
Anaerobic threshold is very individual. You canīt say it is always between 85 - 90 % of HFmax.

Some studies have shown that the Conconi test can be inaccurate, others have shown it is accurate, so you might have to use Conconi test results with caution. The best and most accurate way to find your anaerobic or lactate threshold is by measuring blood lactate levels under increasing load on a treadmill. But to take blood and analyze it you need to perform the test at a research lab with trained medical expertise.

Usually the lactate threshhold is between 70-90% of your VO2max which is not the same as 70-90% of your maxHR.

Regards,
Jonas

[AndersBrontosaurus]

Hello!
Here is some suggestions you can take into consideration when planning future watches. Would also like to agree with other users here. Small scetches have been made to explain better but will not share them today. Hopefully I can explain anyway. I have no big experience using other watches but using gh-615 under different circumstances and looking at other watches here are some thoughts:

vertical display rather than horisontal
- Will use the display more efficiant. Right now there's a lot of space not being used. I assume there is a reason for putting the display horizontally, maybe need for HRMconnection and Sirf-gps at the bottom to point upwards when wearing the watch, but still. Vertical would be good.

Start/lap/stopbutton on the front instead of the side
- I've seen that GS-505 and Garmin 305 among others uses buttons on the front. For me one button to do it all would be enough. And maybe one for light.
To start: press the button. To make a lap: press the button. To stop: keep the button pressed for 3 seconds. The timing then stops and the new 3 seconds long lap is automatically discarded. I assume there can still be a stopbutton on the side if it's needed but for me this would be enough. And simpler wintertime so I don't have to take clumsy gloves of when skiing. I am also always worrying about accidently stopping the watch when I do pushups during running since the buttons is pushing towards my wrists. It hasn't happened yet but it looks like it could happen. 

Barometer/Altimeter
-of some kind to make the measuring more accurate. GPS works fine in all directions part from up/down in my present watch. Altitude differs up to...almost 20 meters if I recall right.

Stepcounter is not superimportant but interesting since I have realized that my steplength has impact on my running. Guess footpod as Zingo writes would be way better but maybe also way more expensive? I don't know maybe they take up to much room in the watch and I can always use an external stepcounter. 

The HR graph could be plot:ed on the display for visual inspection before you select it. And when we talk about ploting graphs I think future models should be able to plot all sorts of graphs, like HR,High,speed. And the display should be high resolution and color, but now we probably are a little bit more into the future...

Nice idea! I prefer to do analyzing afterwards by the computer afterwards but visual graphs that are usable during the run sounds neat. Maybe overkill with colurs? I like to keep the price down

It seems the ideas being discussed focus on possibilities. If I may, I'd like to add my wish list with respect to ergonomics - fully realising that some of these ideas may not be feasable:
- water resistant
- quicker processing speed, so that the breadcrump trail in map mode refreshes instantly
- higher-resolution LCD
- buttons that can be operated more easily (for instance, when wearing bike gloves)
- longer battery life
- "GPS Off"-dedicated key combination (so as to use it as watch when you're on the way, or resting,...) to save battery

(I've edited Jervanhegs post which is much longer.)

Yes! Key-combos. Maybe make one for "hold" as well?

1. Since I downloaded my first training data from the watch into my computer,
I didn't like to use the screwdriver to "open" and "close" the watch for data transfer !
In the meantime, I broke the edge of the original screwdriver and I have to use
another one...

2. Although data transfer can be done wirelessly, I'm afraid that battery charging
will still need a cable. I know that the screwdriver solution is for water protection,
but I still don't want to have an additional tool.  And I also do not want to have an
additional (means: special !) cable for charging. I would prefer a standard USB
connector, so that all other cable (like digital camera, mobile phone) would fit !

That's all for the beginning...

Best regards. Hubert

(I've edited Huberts post which is much longer.)

Agree. Normal mini-usb would be nice. I don't have a screw on my watch. I have a small plastic plug. Would much prefer a big screw that can be screwed with bare hands and prefferably on the side of the watch for easier charging during ultrarunning which Zingo talked about on another thread. And as long as you're using plastic plugs how about enclosing one extra in the package since they look like they break easy?

That's all for now...

Best regards
Anders

[TWG_TECH8]

Hello!
Here is some suggestions you can take into consideration when planning future watches. Would also like to agree with other users here. Small scetches have been made to explain better but will not share them today. Hopefully I can explain anyway. I have no big experience using other watches but using gh-615 under different circumstances and looking at other watches here are some thoughts:

vertical display rather than horisontal
- Will use the display more efficiant. Right now there's a lot of space not being used. I assume there is a reason for putting the display horizontally, maybe need for HRMconnection and Sirf-gps at the bottom to point upwards when wearing the watch, but still. Vertical would be good.

Start/lap/stopbutton on the front instead of the side
- I've seen that GS-505 and Garmin 305 among others uses buttons on the front. For me one button to do it all would be enough. And maybe one for light.
To start: press the button. To make a lap: press the button. To stop: keep the button pressed for 3 seconds. The timing then stops and the new 3 seconds long lap is automatically discarded. I assume there can still be a stopbutton on the side if it's needed but for me this would be enough. And simpler wintertime so I don't have to take clumsy gloves of when skiing. I am also always worrying about accidently stopping the watch when I do pushups during running since the buttons is pushing towards my wrists. It hasn't happened yet but it looks like it could happen. 

Barometer/Altimeter
-of some kind to make the measuring more accurate. GPS works fine in all directions part from up/down in my present watch. Altitude differs up to...almost 20 meters if I recall right.

Stepcounter is not superimportant but interesting since I have realized that my steplength has impact on my running. Guess footpod as Zingo writes would be way better but maybe also way more expensive? I don't know maybe they take up to much room in the watch and I can always use an external stepcounter. 

The HR graph could be plot:ed on the display for visual inspection before you select it. And when we talk about ploting graphs I think future models should be able to plot all sorts of graphs, like HR,High,speed. And the display should be high resolution and color, but now we probably are a little bit more into the future...

Nice idea! I prefer to do analyzing afterwards by the computer afterwards but visual graphs that are usable during the run sounds neat. Maybe overkill with colurs? I like to keep the price down

It seems the ideas being discussed focus on possibilities. If I may, I'd like to add my wish list with respect to ergonomics - fully realising that some of these ideas may not be feasable:
- water resistant
- quicker processing speed, so that the breadcrump trail in map mode refreshes instantly
- higher-resolution LCD
- buttons that can be operated more easily (for instance, when wearing bike gloves)
- longer battery life
- "GPS Off"-dedicated key combination (so as to use it as watch when you're on the way, or resting,...) to save battery

(I've edited Jervanhegs post which is much longer.)

Yes! Key-combos. Maybe make one for "hold" as well?

1. Since I downloaded my first training data from the watch into my computer,
I didn't like to use the screwdriver to "open" and "close" the watch for data transfer !
In the meantime, I broke the edge of the original screwdriver and I have to use
another one...

2. Although data transfer can be done wirelessly, I'm afraid that battery charging
will still need a cable. I know that the screwdriver solution is for water protection,
but I still don't want to have an additional tool.  And I also do not want to have an
additional (means: special !) cable for charging. I would prefer a standard USB
connector, so that all other cable (like digital camera, mobile phone) would fit !

That's all for the beginning...

Best regards. Hubert

(I've edited Huberts post which is much longer.)

Agree. Normal mini-usb would be nice. I don't have a screw on my watch. I have a small plastic plug. Would much prefer a big screw that can be screwed with bare hands and prefferably on the side of the watch for easier charging during ultrarunning which Zingo talked about on another thread. And as long as you're using plastic plugs how about enclosing one extra in the package since they look like they break easy?

That's all for now...

Best regards
Anders

Hi Anders,

Thanks for so many valueable suggestions!
Here is my comments regarding your ideas:

vertical display rather than horisontal

For GB-580, we have implemented this idea. The resolution of display should be symmetrical.

Start/lap/stopbutton on the front instead of the side

We will keep this idea, thanks.

Barometer/Altimeter

We have put in GB-580 series. Thanks for suggestion.

The HR graph could be plot:ed on the display for visual inspection before you select it. And when we talk about ploting graphs I think future models should be able to plot all sorts of graphs, like HR,High,speed. And the display should be high resolution and color, but now we probably are a little bit more into the future...

Nice idea! I prefer to do analyzing afterwards by the computer afterwards but visual graphs that are usable during the run sounds neat. Maybe overkill with colurs? I like to keep the price down

Sounds great! We will keep this idea for next implementation.

- "GPS Off"-dedicated key combination (so as to use it as watch when you're on the way, or resting,...) to save battery

We use combo key as screen rotation for GB-580.

Agree. Normal mini-usb would be nice. I don't have a screw on my watch. I have a small plastic plug. Would much prefer a big screw that can be screwed with bare hands and prefferably on the side of the watch for easier charging during ultrarunning which Zingo talked about on another thread. And as long as you're using plastic plugs how about enclosing one extra in the package since they look like they break easy?

Yes, it is mini-USB for GB-580. For watch, considering of water aganist, it should be clip.
BTW, just showing some information of next generation of 5ATM watch for reference.
Welcome to have more idea.


Sincerely,

Geoffrey

[canadien]

BTW, just showing some information of next generation of 5ATM watch for reference.

So you guys are targeting the depths with this one? Nice design job by the way for it's classy look.