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[albert]

Hi all,

The new version TG V2.1 is good, but I found out that it is missing the save option for the waypoints to a file. I.e. *.wpt

Best regards


Albert

[Hubert]

Hi all,

let me give some comments to the latest version V2.1 of Training Gym:

* First of all, I'm happy that we now have a tool to define waypoints and to import them into the GH-625 !
   Next I want to make some suggestions for improvement (some have been mentioned by others already):

Database handling:
* The installation of a new version should offer an option for a complete new installation or just updating.
   When selecting "new", a new (empty) database will be created. When selecting "update", the existing
   database will not be touched.
* Alternatively there should be a clear and easy method for saving/restoing the database.

Waypoint Naming:
* Defining a waypoint by clicking on the map is okay. I would like to have an option for naming them
   automatically, because I'm to lazy to enter a name for each point. Names could be given starting from
   001, 002, ...  So it should be possible to define a waypoint with a single click !   
   This doesn't mean that users are not able to give their own names, if they want to. It just makes it
   easier for people like me, which just need a up-counting number.
   And it also doesn't prevent users from inserting some points later on, if they find that it would be better
   to define a part of the route more detailed. They can insert more point between e.g. point 037 and 038
   by defining a set of new points naming them 037a, 037b and 037c.

Waypoint moving:
* If you find, that an already defined waypoint is misplaced, it should be possible to move it by dragging
   it on the map.

Waypoint saving:
* I also missed a possibility to save a set of waypoints to a file and give them a name.
   Later on, I saw that the waypoints are stored in the database related to the day of definition.
   So - at least, there are not gone... 

Waypoint handling:
* When playing around with waypoint transfer to/from the watch, I noticed that when I load the
   same waypoints from the watch to the TG Database more than one time, they will not overwrite
   the first set of waypoints, instead they will always be added.
   I'm not sure, if this is a feature or a bug...
* However - after having all this waypoints in the database, it is nearly impossible to get rid of them !
   There should be an option like: "Delete all selected" !

Route creation:
* All those ideas are more or less optimizations. I'm not getting tired to ask for the still missing function
   of defining routes. Of course this is possible with the GH-625 itself but it would be much easier with
   the TG software !
   In the meantime, I don't believe that we will get this feature, because it seems, that the data transfer
   protocol for routes has not been included into the watch. But this would solve a lot of questions,
   suggestions and ideas for workarounds which came up in the meantime !
* Normally I don't like to ask for workarounds. I like to ask for solutions...
   In this case, I will make a exception. Because it's a very easy one:
   Instead of defining a route by a very cumbersome and hostile procedure with the watch itself,
   I suggest an "automatic route creation" (inside the watch), which arranges the loaded waypoints
   automatically in alphanumeric order.
   This would solve a lot of problems which have been discussed already in other threads.

Finally:
* Unfortunately, I was too busy to check out the waypoint functions in real life. I just tested the software
   with my PC. Maybe there are some more findings when I first go out with my watch...

Regards, Hubert

[albert]

Hi all,

let me give some comments to the latest version V2.1 of Training Gym:

* First of all, I'm happy that we now have a tool to define waypoints and to import them into the GH-625 !
   Next I want to make some suggestions for improvement (some have been mentioned by others already):

Database handling:
* The installation of a new version should offer an option for a complete new installation or just updating.
   When selecting "new", a new (empty) database will be created. When selecting "update", the existing
   database will not be touched.
* Alternatively there should be a clear and easy method for saving/restoing the database.

Waypoint Naming:
* Defining a waypoint by clicking on the map is okay. I would like to have an option for naming them
   automatically, because I'm to lazy to enter a name for each point. Names could be given starting from
   001, 002, ...  So it should be possible to define a waypoint with a single click !   
   This doesn't mean that users are not able to give their own names, if they want to. It just makes it
   easier for people like me, which just need a up-counting number.
   And it also doesn't prevent users from inserting some points later on, if they find that it would be better
   to define a part of the route more detailed. They can insert more point between e.g. point 037 and 038
   by defining a set of new points naming them 037a, 037b and 037c.

Waypoint moving:
* If you find, that an already defined waypoint is misplaced, it should be possible to move it by dragging
   it on the map.

Waypoint saving:
* I also missed a possibility to save a set of waypoints to a file and give them a name.
   Later on, I saw that the waypoints are stored in the database related to the day of definition.
   So - at least, there are not gone... 

Waypoint handling:
* When playing around with waypoint transfer to/from the watch, I noticed that when I load the
   same waypoints from the watch to the TG Database more than one time, they will not overwrite
   the first set of waypoints, instead they will always be added.
   I'm not sure, if this is a feature or a bug...
* However - after having all this waypoints in the database, it is nearly impossible to get rid of them !
   There should be an option like: "Delete all selected" !

Route creation:
* All those ideas are more or less optimizations. I'm not getting tired to ask for the still missing function
   of defining routes. Of course this is possible with the GH-625 itself but it would be much easier with
   the TG software !
   In the meantime, I don't believe that we will get this feature, because it seems, that the data transfer
   protocol for routes has not been included into the watch. But this would solve a lot of questions,
   suggestions and ideas for workarounds which came up in the meantime !
* Normally I don't like to ask for workarounds. I like to ask for solutions...
   In this case, I will make a exception. Because it's a very easy one:
   Instead of defining a route by a very cumbersome and hostile procedure with the watch itself,
   I suggest an "automatic route creation" (inside the watch), which arranges the loaded waypoints
   automatically in alphanumeric order.
   This would solve a lot of problems which have been discussed already in other threads.

Finally:
* Unfortunately, I was too busy to check out the waypoint functions in real life. I just tested the software
   with my PC. Maybe there are some more findings when I first go out with my watch...

Regards, Hubert

Hello Hubert,

I agree with you about the comments, more or less I did put this up in the thread "how to save routes in gh625"
I did some tests in an unknown airier with the waypoints. I did this with the option [NAVIGATION], [FIND WAYPOINT], selected one and then [GOTO?] I numbered them I.e. 001 la (left turn), 002 ra (right turn), 003 rd (strait ahead), etc. placed them a bit in the next road. This way works fine, since the watch is sorting also alphanummeric, only because it is doing one waypoint at the time it takes a lot of buton pressing everytime. Good is that it remembers the selected waypoint from the last time, so one step down or up gives the next waypoint to be selected.
What is strange is the fact that a created track thus not show up in navigation if you simply put waypoints later on them and put them in the watch, since the track is already stored in the watch.
I did just read from Roger, if I understood him well, that it is possible to create a route with begin waypoint and end waypoint, that the software is leading him from one to the other waypoint automatically untill the last waypoint he seleced as end. Do you know this possibility? If yes How?


Best regards,


Albert

[Hubert]

Hi Albert,

I will try to answer your question:

I did just read from Roger, if I understood him well, that it is possible to create a route with begin waypoint and end waypoint, that the software is leading him from one to the other waypoint automatically untill the last waypoint he seleced as end. Do you know this possibility? If yes How?

Best regards, Albert

in the thread about "How to save routes in gh625".

Regards, Hubert

[albert]

Hello Geoffrey,
I did drove a waypointed route by selecting one waypoint at the time, after coming back home it is not possible  to load in the track and my stored waypoints in the same screen, in TG. That is a pity because I like to see where I missed a waypoint by looking at the track as well.
After reloading the waypoints into TG all the comments in the last row are not there anymore.
Hopefully you can correct this in the new version, and please note the comments from Hubert in particular about deleting waypoints. Like I mentioned in another tread alpha numbers will sort ok. 

Best Regards,

Albert 

[Hubert]

Hi all,

I think, Albert's remark is very useful:
 

Hello Geoffrey,
I did drove a waypointed route by selecting one waypoint at the time, after coming back home it is not possible  to load in the track and my stored waypoints in the same screen, in TG. That is a pity because I like to see where I missed a waypoint by looking at the track as well.

Best Regards, Albert

Once I find time to test this function, I also want to see both in one map: Waypoints and track !

Maybe I have an idea for the other problem:

After reloading the waypoints into TG all the comments in the last row are not there anymore.
Hopefully you can correct this in the new version, and please note the comments from Hubert in particular about deleting waypoints. Like I mentioned in another tread alpha numbers will sort ok. 

Best Regards, Albert

I think, remarks are not stored inside the watch. At least I don't know a method how to display them.
So, the first question is, why I should create remarks, if I cannot see them in the watch ?
But this explains, why they are not seen when reloaded into TG. They are not inside the watch,
so they cannot be reloaded.
However - the next question is: Why do you want to reload them ? They are still there !
You just have to select the date when you created the waypoints (in TG, see colored date).
There you will find the waypoints. And I hope with all your remarks.

Regards, Hubert

[Hubert]

Hi all,

today I did my first check of waypoint navigation (still in a known area) and I want to
share my results with you.

First of all: The watch worked like I expected and I already explained in another thread:

Hi Albert, Roger and all others...

After loading the waypoints into the watch, you can create a route by "connecting" one
point after the other with the buttons of the watch.
This is a really awful procedure and up to now I only tried this with a few
number of points. But I think this will result in what Roger described: 
* You will see a dotted line leading from one point to the next in map mode,
* Arrow in upper right corner shows direction and distance to next point,
* When reaching a point the watch will beep and activate next point automatically.
* If you miss a point, you can step forward or backward by one point by pressing OK or ESC.

Regards, Hubert

It worked exactly like described above and I think, this is a very good function and I'm sure
it will be fine also in an unknown area.

There is one minor item what I should mention: The map which I used for waypoint creation
(google map inside TG Gym) seemed to be inaccurate. Later I saw, there is also has differences
between map view and satellite view. As a result, I wasn't able to define the waypoints
exactly. I found them sometimes 30-40m next to my path.
Of course the watch wants to lead you to this point, even when you already passed it.
That means, the watch will tell you to go back.
I think, this is not a problem of the watch. I just want to tell it, so that others are prepared
to make this experience.  And furthermore this is not a real problem, because when you see
that you missed a point, you just click the OK button and the watch will automatically
switch to the next point.

Summary: Waypoint navigation is working fine. Very good function. Nothing to complain about.
With one exception: There should be an optimized method for route definition !
I already made some suggestions and I think I will detail them a little bit more at a later time.

There is one more thing, I found after finishing my training:
What Albert and me wanted to have for analysing, is already there:
Waypoints and track are shown in the same grafic in TG software !

I think, this will always happen, when the data set for waypoints is available at the same
date, when the track has been recorded. So, also here: That's fine !

@Geoffrey: Don't get excited about my positive result 
There are still some items which I don't like... 
... but all in all I like this function !

Regards, Hubert

[albert]

Hi Hubert,
Thanks for your reply, what I wanted to make clear that the remarks are not very useful Since they not in the watch. If you not careful you see all the waypoints you loaded in on the screen, also the ones from another route. The only way is delete the lot from the watch and load only the route you want, Good news is that I found out, thanks to Roger, how the waypoints are working see the comments in “how to safe routes in GH 625”
What is annoying, that it thus not delete the selected waypoints in one go in the TG software. This needs to be fixed. Un till now it is not possible to load waypoints in from another source, is it?
If you create waypoints, I did a view test, it is necessary to put the waypoints a little in the next road, but not more than max 50 meters. This way you see later in the watch a line from one to the other waypoint. It is updating the screen much faster, less then one sec. no screen.

Best regards,

Albert

[albert]

What Albert and me wanted to have for analysing, is already there:
Waypoints and track are shown in the same grafic in TG software !

I think, this will always happen, when the data set for waypoints is available at the same
date, when the track has been recorded. So, also here: That's fine !



Regards, Hubert

Hi Hubert,

You are right if the waypoints are created the same day as you drive the track you see the waypoints and track together.
But a lot of times I have to do that a day before or even earlier.
So if possible I like to see them some how together, after the ride.
For the FW in the watch I have some more thinks I like to see.

Regards,

Albert

[Hubert]

Hi Albert,

You are right if the waypoints are created the same day as you drive the track you see the waypoints and track together.
But a lot of times I have to do that a day before or even earlier.
So if possible I like to see them some how together, after the ride.

Regards, Albert

Of course - I also do the waypoint definition before running the track and I also
do it one or more days before. And than you will not see the waypoints and the track together.

But maybe this is a good reason to reload the waypoints from the watch into TG Gym Database ?
So after you finished your track, when you load the resulting track data to your PC, you could also
load the waypoints from the watch to your PC. So you will see them together (I think...).

Of course this is only a good idea, if you keep only the waypoints of a single route in the watch
at the same time. Otherwise you might be confused about all the other points...

It's just an idea... I don't have much experience up to now. And I'm also still looking for optimal
methods of working with waypoints and routes.

Regards, Hubert.

[albert]

Hi Hubert,

quote;
But maybe this is a good reason to reload the waypoints from the watch into TG Gym Database ?
So after you finished your track, when you load the resulting track data to your PC, you could also
load the waypoints from the watch to your PC. So you will see them together (I think...).


I thought I did that, but now I am not sure, will try that again.
Thanks,

For Geoffrey,
 
One other thing, the label given in TG for waypoint identification has to meet the map length label (=5 char.) in the watch, or the the map in FW should have 6 char. (small letters), as in TG

Regards,

Albert

[skeptisch]

Hi together,

i also tested the TG 2.1, waypoint creation and the route function of the watch and overall, my first impression is quite positive. Most things work out quite well, after i followed the instructions and suggestions here in the forum. Nevertheless, i totally agree with hubert, albert and others, that creating routes only within the watch after transfering the waypoints is really painfull (my buttons are still quite hard to press, witch is good in general, but turns route creation into hard work...).

Furthermore, i am also satified with the option of loading tracks into TG and also into the watch. This worked as well. To use this feature more comfortable, i miss the option to name tracks (called "activities" in the watch) by myself (both in TG and in the watch), instead of a fix date of transmission or creation, which is used as a "name" now. 
Concerning the waypoint tool, I found it a bit problematic to use such a big "hand" while hoovering over the map to mark the points. I would suggest to change the curser symbol to a small target cross, as long the planing mode is active or as long as hoovering over the map (I mean such a courser as it is used e.g. in painting  or CAD programms). The courser up to now simply covers to much of the visible map and makes it to inaccurate, since i do not know which part of the "hand" is the centre...
Furthermore, i realized that the watch stopps recording automatically, if one reaches the last wayoint while following a route. This is ok in some cases, but should be made configurable, since in my case, i just used the last waypoint as a tool for navigation and did not reached the end of my training at this waypoint, so i had to restart the timer again and ended up with two tracks then...
Loading waypoints from other sources (in GPX format) into TG does not work well up to now, I allways get error messages like "unknown format" etc. This should be improved.

Well, at the end, the most important feature for outdoor activities is still missing and makes the watch only the second choice for serious navigation in the wilderness:
UTM Waypoint entry!
As long as we do not have googlemaps all around us via smartphones etc. and as long as GPS devices are not failprove like a swiss knife, i will never leave home into the wild without a good paper map! The problem is, that up to now neither TG nor the watch enables the entry of waypoints in the standard UTM grid used in most (high quality) outdoor maps (at least here in Europe). The watch will never have the opportunity and power to display real maps, so why not make it at least a good complementary device for navigation with paper maps also?
The recalculation from standard deg°, min' format to UTM is not such a difficult task and could be easily implemented into TG and already is - in general - implemented in the watch: In the info screen showing ones position, we can switch the format from deg°, min'...to UTM already. So, why not make also the entry in UTM availble both in TG and - more essential -  in the watch using a simple third option in the section of "activity setting" --> "set units" --> "coordination" calling the already implemented routine for recalculation?
Navigating to a unknown point only visible on a map is the most simple and essential procedure. As long as I can not use the coordinates I read out of the map, this feature is missing for the GH-625.

So in this regard both, the next FW and TG should be improved.

Sorry for this harsh critique in the end. I am simply angry that i still have to carry two GPS devices while the GH625 would in general do the job.

greetings

Skeptisch

[Hubert]

Hi all,

I think "Skeptisch" made some very useful suggestions and I want to add some comments from
my point of view:

Nevertheless, i totally agree with hubert, albert and others, that creating routes only within the watch after transfering the waypoints is really painfull !

YES ! Thank you !

...my buttons are still quite hard to press, witch is good in general, but turns route creation into hard work...

Maybe you forgot, that you bought a "Training device". Nobody said it's just for training your legs and feet.
It is also for training your fingers 

...I miss the option to name tracks (called "activities" in the watch) by myself (both in TG and in the watch), instead of a fix date of transmission or creation, which is used as a "name" now. 

Yes, agreed ! I also would prefer this !

I would suggest to change the curser symbol to a small target cross,...

Yes, agreed ! Totally !

Furthermore, i realized that the watch stopps recording automatically, if one reaches the last wayoint while following a route. This is ok in some cases, but should be made configurable, since in my case, i just used the last waypoint as a tool for navigation and did not reached the end of my training at this waypoint, so i had to restart the timer again and ended up with two tracks then...

I had exactly the same situation ! Total agreement.

Loading waypoints from other sources (in GPX format) into TG does not work well up to now, I allways get error messages like "unknown format" etc. This should be improved.

I didn't test that up to now. If it's true: This should be improved.

UTM Waypoint entry!

Okay... seems that I use the watch for different purpose. I even don't know how to use a paper map
containing UTM coordinates. So - this is not an important point for me.
But I agree totally to the common remarks of skeptisch: This is one more item, where users have the
feeling, that the watch already has everything on board to be a really powerful tool and it could be
within the top group of all competitors. However - there all always some little things missing or
not finished, not optimized, not tested or just not thought to the end... It's really a great pitty !

Regards, Hubert

[albert]

Hi Hubert,

quote;
But maybe this is a good reason to reload the waypoints from the watch into TG Gym Database ?
So after you finished your track, when you load the resulting track data to your PC, you could also
load the waypoints from the watch to your PC. So you will see them together (I think...).


I thought I did that, but now I am not sure, will try that again.
Thanks,

For Geoffrey,
 
One other thing, the label given in TG for waypoint identification has to meet the map length label (=5 char.) in the watch, or the the map in FW should have 6 char. (small letters), as in TG

Regards,

Albert

Hi Hubert,

It works!!, but if you go to planning tool and do something like make an other waypoint, then going back to the track file the waypoints are gone.
That is not a problem going to an other file and back a gain the waypoints are back.

Regards,

Albert 

[Hubert]

Hi all,

I wanted to describe in more detail, what I suggest what should be done to optimize the
usage of waypoint and routes:

Of course first of all, I want to remember what I already posted here:
  http://www.usglobalsat.com/forum/index.php?topic=973.msg1756#msg1756

But there was one item, I wanted to specify in more detail (my favorite item):

Route definition:
1. To be sure what we are talking about:
    * A "Route" is considered a sequential ordered number of waypoints.
    * A "Route" is needed to use the full functionality of the navigation tools of GH-625.
    * Currently there is no way to load a route into the GH-625 via PC software.
    * The method of creating a route with the buttons of the watch is "no fun".

2. Of course, the best solution would be to have a "Load" function for routes,
    like we already have for tracks and waypoints.  Routes can aldready be created via TG 2.1
    (the sequential ordering of waypoints is already there !). The only thing missing is the
    communication protocol/software for loading these few numbers into the watch.
    It's really a pitty !
    Maybe Geoffrey can check again with his team, if there is a possibility to implement this !

3. If this is not possible, I would suggest a workaround, which seems to be rather easy.
    It consists of two steps:
    a) First it has to be maded sure, that during waypoint definition in TG 2.1, the waypoint
        naming is done in alphanumerical order, like A001, A002... A050.
        This could be done either by the user himself. Or even better: By a software option
        for automatical naming. This could ask for a name pattern like "A###", when first
        waypoint is created. All following waypoints would be named automatically with up
        counting numbers.
    b) After loading the waypoints into the watch, the route has to be created.
        What has to be done manually in the moment, could be done by the watch itself
        with an automatic route creation, which just orders all waypoints according to their
        alphanumerical names into a route.
        I think this is a simple function and I'm sure, GlobalSat can do that !
    c) When I said, the auto-route function should order "all" waypoints to combine a route,
        that means, it will only work fine, when "all" waypoints belong to one single route only.
        If you want to keep waypoints for more than one route inside the watch, the conecpt
        needs a litte extension:
        For more than one route, you should start with giving them different names,
        like "A001, A002,... A050" for route "A" and "B001, B002, ... B050" for route "B".
        After importing the waypoints into the watch, the auto-route function could ask for
        a start and end point and after selecting "B001" and "B020" it will create a route
        by combining all waypoints in this band.
        This is a little extension to b), but it's still not too complicated.

From my point of view, these modifications could solve the problem of route creation.
Of course any feedback is welcome !

Regards, Hubert